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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 15, 2011 18:38:40 GMT
How would you know if you've never lifted properly in a gym before? haha The only things you cant do in a gym that you guys do during hell nights is traversing and climb ups.. which you should be doing in your technical training anyway. I've said my piece - regardless of whether I think the gyms a better option, the hell nights of hours on end of training to such an intensity will be counterproductive. Anyway, if you guys are happy and i cant change your mind then that's that "I really want to help people, but if they won't take my advice there's nothing I can do. That's fine by me. I don't fight the battles. I just don't f**king care." Jim Wendler
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Post by TankZILLA on Jan 15, 2011 19:30:31 GMT
lol, its all good, well sort something out. Iv still got membership at the dmu gym so i might check it out sometime next week. But this coming thursday, Ronil, Jim, Dumi if you guys are down for some training then we can start this again. But yeah i think we should keep it shorter, for about an hour or hour and a half. and we can decide together what we wana train.
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Post by Abstergo on Jan 15, 2011 23:03:05 GMT
I actually got a lot of strength gains from hell nights back in the day Also, a tolerant cns is a pretty cool thing to have. I think hell nights brought me a lot more than in increased strength / endurance too The best thing is to be mindful of your goals, then pick your training accordingly
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Post by misame on Jan 15, 2011 23:15:03 GMT
How would you know if you've never lifted properly in a gym before? haha The only things you cant do in a gym that you guys do during hell nights is traversing and climb ups.. which you should be doing in your technical training anyway. I've said my piece - regardless of whether I think the gyms a better option, the hell nights of hours on end of training to such an intensity will be counterproductive. Anyway, if you guys are happy and i cant change your mind then that's that "I really want to help people, but if they won't take my advice there's nothing I can do. That's fine by me. I don't fight the battles. I just don't f**king care." Jim Wendler its definetly not my intent not work out for hours on end with hell nights, i know not to strength train for too long at a time but with hell nights there are no other distractions that i have at home
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Post by misame on Jan 15, 2011 23:17:21 GMT
lol, its all good, well sort something out. Iv still got membership at the dmu gym so i might check it out sometime next week. But this coming thursday, Ronil, Jim, Dumi if you guys are down for some training then we can start this again. But yeah i think we should keep it shorter, for about an hour or hour and a half. and we can decide together what we wana train. i agree short and sweet but i will only be able to come out for hell nights start about late febuary maybe
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Post by Tim on Jan 15, 2011 23:50:43 GMT
Hey, Joe can I just go back to your comment about functional training on the last page, and about it being a fad. I never got a chance to reply to that one, I try to think out my posts and it takes me some time to write them!
I'm not trying to pick you up on anything, I'm just trying to learn more and just clarify what you exactly mean. I think we are on the same page, but as you know more about this than me, I'm just curious.
Thinking about it, functional training is quite a vague term. Do you mean that people use the term without fully explaining themselves or what they mean by 'functional', almost like a gimmik? I guess I'm guilty of that too after re-reading my one from last post. When I mentioned functional training on the previous page I guess I was thinking of two things. One is using compound exercises that use multiple joints and muscle groups together and dropping the things that have less carry over to Parkour, or what ever sport you practice. I also completely agree that isolation exercises like bicep curls or calf raises have there own place in workouts to fill in any missing gaps/strengthen any weak links after the compound exercises.
You mentioned sport specific training being bull crap. Could you go into a little more detail? I know that a good strength, conditioning and mobility program will help you with any sport you try, and it is practicing that sport that makes it relevant. But surely training squats would be relevant to Parkour as we make use of a squatting motion, and explode from it a lot. Whilst a climber, for example, would have less use for squats. So that would make squats, if it not specific, at least relevent for Parkour and not all other sports?
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Post by misame on Jan 16, 2011 0:10:46 GMT
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 0:14:26 GMT
Dan, i didnt say it wouldnt give you strength gains, i just said the style would be counterproductive, which is true. hours on end you will just get burnt out. and i shouldnt have used the word tolerant, your CNS will just get fried.
Tim ill post properly tomorrow but a few quick points. A squat isnt more functional than a leg press - but it works better in the training economy. its a compound lift that strengthens a lottt of muscles in one exercise.
and sport specific i mean, people would say the bench press isnt parkour specific, neither the deadlift or squat. You are strengthening the muscles and then applying that strength.
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 0:22:45 GMT
Dumi, that isnt relevant. At all. Please know that me and blane used to train exactly the same, almost always together. As did Tim and Sam. We have all been there. that article is old, and if you follow blane's blog, he even admits he was wrong.
I swear this would be so much easier if someone like Mike Guadango wrote an article bitch slapping the whole parkour community.
If you really want strength training education read elitefts.com, tnation.com and defrancosgym.com until you have read it all
sigggghhhh
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Post by ron hill io on Jan 16, 2011 6:59:28 GMT
Okay okay How about we stick to topic (HA that coming from me )! Ill let Jim know, then we can sort something out. Jow, thanks for the info and i do understand what you are saying. i just feel like this would be better for me and maybe other people too. Probably not the best option but its something!
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 11:45:54 GMT
It's cool, it's just frustrating as we actually have experience with all of this. If we had the information that you guys get fed now we would've realised proper strength training was the right thing a loong time ago. And what frustrates me is that we practically feed this information and sometimes it just gets ignored. But like i said, if you guys are happy then cool p.s. there's more benefits to proper strength training than the pbvious.. my joints have never felt as healthy as they do now, flexibility etc.
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Post by ron hill io on Jan 16, 2011 17:20:38 GMT
If i do join a gym ill let you know Joe, then you can help me out I cant use weights in a gym anyway, gotta be 18....
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Post by Abstergo on Jan 16, 2011 17:33:38 GMT
Are you sure about that?
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Post by ron hill io on Jan 16, 2011 18:07:27 GMT
yeh, asked a gym nearby, and some other one Plus the one in college, can only use the machine weights, not free weights
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 18:22:19 GMT
Just say acquire Mark Rippetoe's starting strength book and read it, lots. Then follow the programme, exactly.
Just lie about your age.
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Post by Barbecue Chicken Wingers McGee on Jan 16, 2011 18:37:24 GMT
Hey, Joe can I just go back to your comment about functional training on the last page I think we are on the same page Also Joe, I think a lot of people need that journey that you've already been through. Take an example I experienced recently - if somebody gets really upset about something small, it's really hard to persuade them otherwise, even if you've been through much much worse. But after they get through it, they'll look back and go "oh that was silly". It's not like they're going to start doing drugs, they're just not training as well as they could be (according to latest research at least). So I know it's probably really frustrating, but they're [we're] not ignoring you because they [we] think you're wrong! (And also, I don't train in a gym because I hate the vibe there, I'm a skinny metrosexual geek, it doesn't suit me!)
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Post by ron hill io on Jan 16, 2011 19:29:48 GMT
AHA Tom. what would people think of me! im much more skinny!
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 20:42:00 GMT
It's not necessary at all though. Why would they need to if they're just going to switch?
"According to latest research at least" - what do you mean?
Well that's a shame that that stops you from training in a gym.
Like i said, you guys do what you want, that's cool. I've said my bit.
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Post by Barbecue Chicken Wingers McGee on Jan 16, 2011 20:46:24 GMT
I know it doesn't seem necessary, but sometimes you need a journey. Lots of successful people got successful by failing lots then realising their mistakes. Nobody who's bought Paul Mackena's "I can make you rich" has ever become as rich as the man himself.
And I dunno, what you say is backed up by the best science, but then science is always saying it was wrong before. Some of the ways they used to train athletes is laughable nowadays.
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 16, 2011 22:57:56 GMT
Tim, a proper reply for you I think we talked about a lot of this today maybe we should make a new thread, i loooove talking about training haha, especially strength training. I still don't know a thing compared to a lot of people, I learnt mostly from Defranco's website, elitefts and tnation - so it's all accessible information. With regards to functional training - it's usually meant as sport specific training. I see what you mean when you talk about functional training and can see why it got confused. Like I said earlier: the purpose of these lifts is to strengthen the muscle, it isn't necessarily the exercise itself that has a carry over to your sport but the strength gained from that exercise, but the most used exercises (squat, deadlift) etc fit the training economy because they're compound lifts, so it makes much more sense to use them. And they are god d**n incredible. As a side note, personally I'd class lifts like the deadlift and overhead press as 'functional' lifts - they all have real world uses, where as push ups don't - but this doesn't mean oh i shouldn't train it, because we all the push up is incredible simple and incredibly effective in making you strong. With sport specific training, this blog will explain better than I can: www.defrancostraining.com/ask_joe/archives/ask_joe_03-24-06.htm#question06 And to quote the man himself, Joe Defranco: Training Hard or Training Smart? www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/61-training-hard-or-training-smart.htmlTraining Economy: www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/56-training-economy-how-to-maximize-efficiency-in-the-gym.htmlWhy Strength Training is Important for Athletes: www.defrancostraining.com/articles/38-articles/55-why-is-strength-training-important-for-athletes.htmlAnd this is for Dumi about soreness etc:
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Post by Abstergo on Jan 18, 2011 12:55:07 GMT
A side point about mentality, DeFranco alludes to it in the Training Smart article in the HIT section. I think although a session like Hell Night may not be great in terms of training economy, pushing yourself to complete the session in the freezing rain does a lot for you mentally. If you can make yourself mentally strong enough to push through that, then you can bring this mental strength to both your parkour training and your everyday life, a valuable trade-off in my opinion. Training your upper body at Hell Night and training at the gym will both give you strength gains which is what we all need, it's just one is more efficient time wise and the other is better for your mental strength. Also, one night a week of training that way won't burn out your CNS, it only would if you trained like that all the time. I hate typing one handed
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 18, 2011 14:02:37 GMT
Training in the gym isnt better than hell night just because of time efficiency, it's beter in general. Otherwise all these pro athletes who have all the time in the world wouldn't be in the gym, they'd be doing hell night esque training. I agree that hell night does help with mental strength, but if your training outside of hell night isnt mentally demanding and building mental strength, then what are you doing? Firstly, strength training in a gym shouldn't be a doddle - especially the main lift, you should be pushing yourself. Although slightly different, it still takes great mental strength to push through, for example, the last set of the main lift in 5/3/1, or to establish a new RM. It's the same for the assistance work, although it should be done dependent on how your main lift went, it shouldn't be a doddle and there is always exercises that you have to push yourself with - like pull ups. Secondly, your technical training shouldn't be a doddle either - yes it's fun but if you're training properly you will be pushing your mind. I remember being fried after a summer of training with Blane and Sam constantly.. we spent the whole summer breaking jumps and getting our minds into 'emergency states'. If you aren't pushing your mind in this way in both strength and technical training then you are missing out on a lot of lessons.
One night of training to failure in almost everything, repeated week on end, will burn out your CNS. All these 'quick size' programmes that have you training to failure (which is the fastest way to get bigger), only last 4 weeks or so, because you need to take a deload - it's far too demanding. Training to failure, pushing your body where it's never been before, establishing new RMs etc is incredibly demanding on your CNS. Not to mention the fact that half of the people who took part in hell night don't know a thing about eating properly, it's just a recipie for being burnt out.
LOL, I forgot about that. Very impressive man.
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 18, 2011 18:47:15 GMT
P.s. i hope my posts dont seem argumentative or aggressive, i dont mean it that way at all! 'D
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Post by misame on Jan 18, 2011 20:36:00 GMT
If i had a barbell i would squat a lot but it would have to be low reps and a higher weight because i start to feel sick doing sqauats
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Post by Joe Rogan on Jan 18, 2011 21:12:20 GMT
Well thats the point.. to lift heavy.
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